Sunday, July 29, 2007

I like this idea.

Over at MattG's place, he has discovered this little darlin' from Remington:


I like it.

Actually, I like the Ranch Carbine version better:

This is a 5.56mm/.223 rifle with the same feel, same controls, and most of the manual of arms of the ubiquitous Remington 870 shotgun that is the go-to longarm of a majority of law enforcement departments around the nation.

It takes the all-popular AR15/M16 magazine, so feeding it is not a problem.

Like it or not, ladies and gentlemen, there are some officers out there who have difficulty managing a 12 gauge shotgun.

And there are some situation that require the single-shot precision of a rifle, rather than a shotgun.

Add to that equation the disturbing trend of new officers who literally not only know absolutely nothing about firearms, but they have to be ordered to maintain qualification in them, and it becomes a Good Thing for the range master to only have to teach one basic manual of arms and have it carry over to both the patrol 870 shotgun and the patrol 7615 rifle.

Slide here. Pull back and push forward. Trigger here, safety here. To deploy, remove from rack, work slide, place front sight on threat, pull trigger.

Cruiser safe -- hammer down on an empty chamber, magazine full -- will work for both systems; failure drills are the same for both systems, as are chamber checks.

Only having one basic manual of arms also will probably pay dividends in the high-stress situations most officers don't train for. When rounds are flying past your ears, it's not the time to have to try to remember the lesson on deploying your issue AR15 -- the lesson you last had when you were issued the rifle 8 years previous.

Plus the wood-stocked Ranch version is less intimidating than an AR-series rifle, which means that Suzy Soccermommy doesn't get all worked up and start writing hysterical letters to the editor over a wood-stocked rifle as she would an Eee-vil Blaack Riiifle.

I like the concept, and I hope that Remington is successful with it.

LawDog

45 comments:

SpeakerTweaker said...

Well, there goes my comment over at Matt's place about that thing.

Guess it just takes the right point of view.

Still, from a TACTICAL point of view, a semi-auto would still be preferable, right?

Chris Byrne said...

My wife wants one. She's not a big fan of the AR, but wants a small, light carbine that can use my mags.

She's also a HUGE fan of the shotgun in general. She loves them, especially the 11-87 and 1100.

Pretty good solution really.

Grunt said...

Word I got from some people who played with these was there were issues with feed reliability and fore ends coming loose. It's okay if you have to be PC but if a department needs a 5.56 and doesn't want the military look it can go Roger GB. Different strokes for different folks . I like carbines but out to 100 I'll still take my Mossberg 590 with ghost rings and slugs.

grunt said...

Er, folks that should be Ruger GB not Roger. Just got in and I'm beat.

Anonymous said...

If one must roll with a .223 rifle, I'd have to throw in with something of the AR-15 variety that used an operating rod such as a ZM LR-300SR-A or something similar. You can at least get a decent trigger pull out of an AR platform. I've never been able to get the trigger groups that Remington uses in their autoloader and pump rifles to work worth a damn. They're just atrocious. The rifles are marginally reliable too which is acceptable for duty for deer hunting but when you're trusting your life to it I'd like something a little more proven.

I do give Remington credit though. At one time they were absolutely horror stricken with the notion of having their product tarred with the "assault weapon" or "tactical" or "non sporting" label. They weren't outright shunning the non-hunting part of the shooting community but they were certainly positioning themselves against any forthcoming legislative or regulatory onslaught and they were willing to kick certain element of the shooting community to the curb if necessary. For instance they altered shotguns, wouldn't sell mag extensions and didn't sell others to civilians, wouldn't sell certain "tactical" rifles to civilians etc.

They changed after the real legislative heat lifted. They responded well during a couple of incidents (zumbo comes to mind)and this latest attempt at a defensive rifle shows they have lost that streak of cowardice that they seemed to have. Maybe they learned what Franklin said was indeed true that we all hang together or we all hang separately.

Lin said...

From purely an aesthetics standpoint, I would also be partial to the ranch version due to A) owning a retro sort of ranch and B) being a wood worker and hoping it would be in a walnut (even a figure-less grade). It looks utterly charming.

Matt G said...

Anonymous, you're missing the point entirely, from a professional point of view. In many agencies, "semi-auto" is a non-starter. If you say "AR or nothing," you'll get nothing in some agencies.

Add in the fact that lots of guys in lots of agencies know no manual of arms for a long arm beyond an 870, and the 7600 or 7615 makes a lot of sense for some agencies.

Finally, the wood stocked 7600 is far less scarey to many people.

Whatcha wanna bet that the new "tactical rifle" 7615 has had a reliability makeover?

dracphelan said...

Suzy Soccermommy can go take a flying leap, and needs to learn to stay in her lane instead of drifting all over the road. (I spend to much time driving in the Plano/Frisco/Mckinney area.)

Anonymous said...

Yes. Also they require much less maintenance than the AR-15 series. And can go much longer between cleaning. Also if you could find a safe way to differentitate between magazines you could have the low penetration stuff in the rifle and have AP rounds for a barricade problems in a seperate magazine. Might be best to keep those in the trunk.

Buffboy said...

I've always had a soft spot for the Remington pumps. The ranch version looks like handy little carbine. A quick look at Gunbroker shows it's true problem. It's nearly as expensive as the an AR, so except in California, why would the civilian "black gun" crowd buy it?

Jim w. said...

Sounds good for the reasons given, but I just wonder if the 30 shot 'nanner clip gets in the way of shucking the pump.

Anonymous said...

It's the wrong answer to the wrong question : "How can we add more weapons with less training? Let's put a pump .223 in the unit."
Wrong answer. If an officer can't properly employ a weapon with a max range of 150 yards, why do I want to give him a weapon that will kill at 800?
The idea that you can maintain competency on a weapon without training regularly or only qualifiying annually is not good thinking, either. I do realize it is pervasive in the law enforcement community though. But folks, that is why the first round hit probability for law enforcement is only 11% nationwide. Going from 0-60 in a high stress situation sucks. Doing it with a weapon that you haven't touched in a month, let alone a year, is suicide.
Manual of arms is what it is. You either train or you don't. Dumbing down the weapons system is not the answer. If the public pays you to carry the weapon, by golly, you ought to be an expert on it. If your department doesn't enforce or at least encourage and enable that training, then I would beat feet.

Here is EXACTLY what I am talking about:
A pump .223 would not have prevented this gem:

http://blog.ryjones.org/2007/07/16/Marble+Falls+AR15+Magazine+Backwards+Refutation.aspx
Chet
moreammo@hotmail.com

El Capitan said...

I can't help but think that a good lever-action .30-30 would do everything (and more) that the Remington poodleshooter can perform, plus be a less scary sight to Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public.

Rabbit said...

Didn't NYPD carry Winchester 94's in some of the supervisor units until about a decade or so ago?

If I were buying/provisioning in the small-town PD/LEO field, I'd be all over that Remington pump rifle for a vehicle unit. Maybe even the 7600/750 in a .30 caliber round as well. With a wood stock, of course.

Regards,
Rabbit.

The Raving Prophet said...

I've thought it would be an interesting weapon. However, I also wonder if maybe a lever action .30-30 might not be every bit as good, but on the other hand, the magazines interchange with the AR platform, and that can be a GOOD thing (ditto the 30 round capacity). No worries about gas tubes clogging, and with the wood stock, Allyson the anti gun soccer mom probably won't freak out over it (in fact, it will likely be mistaken for a shotgun).

As a civilian, I'm not sure about its utility for me. While I like the idea, the price is kinda high for what it is- $600 will buy that Remington, or it will buy me an AR, and a bit more will buy a nice AR.

It isn't useless, but you have to decide what it is you want to achieve out of a firearm, and then choose the firearm that will achieve those goals. It fills a different niche than a Winchester 94, Remington 870, or even the AR.

Rick R. said...

A few comments, responding to a few different posts.

For differentiation between ammo types, just do what we learned to do in the Army --

Ball ammo in 30 rounders

All-Tracer (best short range fire control datalink a junior leader can have) in 20 rounders

(Adjust to suit your needs.) AR15 magazines are available in a variety of capacities, sizes, and shapes. Surely, you can find ENOUGH visually and tactually distinct species to suit ANY reasonable ammo loadout. (Yes, you want to have them distinct BY TOUCH AND sight, instead of just using different colored Mag-Pulls -- because the stress off fooling around with spare mags of different loads in a firefight is greater than ANY range-derived stress.)

As for the whining that "Suzy Soccermom can just wank off'" (OK, I've paraphrased {grin}), it's a VALID concern. If the taxpayers (led by Suzy Soccermom) make enough of a stink about the police and their "horrible weapons of mass destruction" (i.e., everyday, ordinary AR type rifles), then the local politicos are very likely to just tell the cops "no can do". Police work and logistics is ALSO about driving the PR game. Suzy Soccermom (and 99%+ of politicians) doesn't know the difference between a semi AR15, an M4A1 with M203, and an M2HB.

Unless you think you genuinely NEED an autoloader as a GENERAL PATROL RIFLE (remember, this ain't the SWAT team, and you ain't laying down suppressive fire -- you're supposed to be taking single carefully aimed shots!), then why fight the battle (on which you START on the defensive)?

Lastly, manual of arms. . .

Guess what? A manual of arms objection is 100% valid, and IS NOT an excuse to make it easier for teh ignorant.

The USMC specified ghost ring sights on it's shotguns NOT for any perceived accuracy advantage (they honestly did not think there would be one when they specified it), but simply due to the fact that it made it easier for teh troops than trying to explain, "Look Marine, on THIS weapon you don't NEED a sight -- just use the bead.")

Manual of arms arguments about weapons operation are EVEN MORE IMPROTANT. There are even (highly professional and highly skilled) military sniper experts who insist that a sniper team should be equipped with a sniper rifle derived from the weapon the spotter carries (or vice-versa), EVEN IF IT MEANS A TACTICAL DEGRADATION. Simply because, if both guys have an M14, or an AR, or an AK operating system, they are less likely to screw it up when the little monkey that lives in the back of their skull starts yammering and throwing poo at the enemy who just “popped up” at CQB range.

Anonymous said...

Frankly suzy soccer mom needs to be less worried about the evil black rifle the average patrolman is carrying around in the trunk or under the seat and more worried about the SWAT team and the overuse,misuse and the excesses thereof.

Give the guy on the street what he needs and for the love of god MAKE THEM practice and qualify regularly. I shoot with cops on a pretty regular basis and some of those guys I'm frankly shocked by their marksmanship. I've seen a couple of LEOs show up at the range to qualify that actually closed their eyes and pulled the trigger because they were scared of their weapons. Honest to god.

Kristopher said...

That particular rifle is available in .308 ... the .308 version is actually $100 cheaper.

Will said...

Anyone notice that the Ranch Rifle does not have iron sights? It's for scopes only. The Camo Hunter has iron sights.

Anonymous said...

I'm thinking this is a good accomodation for civilians stuck in the hoplophobic jurisdictions.

No sirree, this ain't an evil AR, this is pump action huntin' gun sir. I can fire aimed shots 90% as fast as my AR from the same 30 R magazine...gosh, THAT never occured to me.

I'm sure the aftermarket will have fun with those.

Matt G said...

[twitch]

[/twitch]

DW said...

As another practical aspect of slide operated weapons, if they fail to function you can shake the hell out of them and remove some of the grit, drink cans and butterflys from the action. When tha action has been purged of extraneous material, perhaps a round will fire. If you think a little dirt won't get in the action, you've never been around in front of the fan.
Some of my old hunting buddies will only carry slide rifles or shotguns.

Glenn Bartley said...

Remington had a pump action rifle out for years. It was okay. I prefer the shotgun to a rifle in pump though.

by the way, You have been tagged, and if you want to play along, please go to: http://ballseyesboomers.blogspot.com/2007/07/tagged-for-8-things-about-me.html

All the best,
Glenn b

Kaerius said...

Like it or not, ladies and gentlemen, there are some officers out there who have difficulty managing a 12 gauge shotgun.

Semi-automatic action. Give them a shotgun that uses the recoil to chamber the next round. They have much less felt recoil. If I could handle one of these as a 15 year old kid(and I'm below average sized) then I'd expect any officer can handle one, including those of the distaff persuasion. Seriously it had only marginally more recoil than a .22LR. I don't remember the exact model I used by it was a beretta, I think it was a beretta 1200. The original magazine size was 8(+1) shots, which had been plugged down to 4(+1) shots to be legal in Sweden. +1 Signifying round in chamber.

Kaerius said...

Ah, looks like I spoke too soon about the magazine size, it's 6(+1) originally.

Anonymous said...

Up here in Canuckistan, our firearms laws prohibit a semi-auto centre-fire from having a magazine of more than 5 rounds.

There is no such prohibition on pump firearms. Finally a use for all of those 20 and 30 round "Eeevil Blaaack Riiifle" magazines that have had to be squirreled away to pacify the shivering masses. :)

Rick R. said...

Anonymous (3:41 PM),

"for the love of god MAKE THEM practice and qualify regularly"

And, what, pray tell, would you eliminate from the training schedule to make time for enough GOOD training that the officer is 100% proficient in three wholly different manuals of arms to the level that they can seamlessly translate from weapon to weapon?

Shooting takes up, what, about 1/10 of 1% of a police officer's job description? And rifle fire IN A REAL FIREFIGHT makes up, what, about 1% of that?

Frankly, if there is a way to reduce the amount of new "gun" skill sets they have to have current, whilst not significantly reducing their effectiveness, I'm all for it.

Use the limited training resources to teach them (or reinforce) stuff they ARE going to need more often -- like better situational control so they are less likely to have things go rodeo and thus less likely to need to open the 5.56mm can of Whup Ass. How about (in larger PDs) using the freed resources to train up the SWAT guys to a truly competent level, so that when Officer Friendly ends up having exhausted his options with Command Voice, Less Than Lethal Force, Sidearm, Shotgun, and/or Patrol Carbine, the SWAT guys can come in with the benefit of doubled or tripled GOOD (i.e., "dynamic" and "judgmentally based") range time with their "Evil Black Rifles"?

Every round, every minute, every dime spent making sure Officer Friendly has his "more than 1000 PROPER repetitions under stress" with the new weapons system so he is reasonably unlikely commit a grievous handling error (instead of being able to ride on the coattails of his ALREADY HAPPENING shotgun training) is a resource that the PD will NEVER GET BACK for training in other areas.

Fact of Life: There are finite resources -- Learn it, Know it, Love it. Ain't NO PD in the world gonna pay for 100% of line officers to go be 3-Gun Champions. Nor should they.

As for switching to autoloaders, there are many reasons why the pump shotgun is still so popular in the Real World tactical environment. (Some more valid than others, admittedly. I'll admit, I'm not a huge shotgun fan -- and PERSONALLY prefer autoloaders for ME. But then, I love the 1911 and personally think DAO autos and DA revolvers are the best handgun choices for most people who aren't "into" guns.)

1. Pumps are less prone to hiccupping because you don't have them properly braced. (Although pumps are definitely more prone to short-shucking and other foolishness. . . I'd rate this a wash, frankly -- but I've never malfed this with either system, so I have no personal experience with OS malfs.)

2. Pumps are more forgiving of oddball loads, especially if you have specialty loads for specialty situations. (Again, if all you issue is standard pressure, standard length shells throwing similar payloads of metal, it's irrelevant.)

3. Pumps are viewed (rightly, IMNSHO) as being safer as cruiser guns. It's DAMNED hard to "accidentally" pump the action when dismounting than hanging a cocking handle on the mount or seatbelt. (I haven't accidentally worked an auto shotgun's action, but I have seen a Garand's operating handle get tangled up and half-worked.)

4. Pumps are more intimidating when readied for action. (ANYTHING that reduces the chance of having to punch someone's ticket in a police situation is probably a good thing. I don't care if it's OBL downrange -- better the state give him the needle than you having to put him down. Easier on the officer, safer for civilians who might also be downrange somewhere.) EVERY thug in America can INSTANTLY identify the sound of a pump gun being cycled. (Likewise, they couldn't tell the difference between a pump shotgun and a pump rifle. . . ) And EVERYONE "knows" that a shotgun will "blow a hole the size of a basket ball" through you while magically scrubbing an alley "wall-to-wall". (Sometimes, ignorant prejudice on the part of a subject can be your friend. . . )

Kaerius said...

The beretta handled both hunting loads and sport loads without ever jamming(and you could fit an extra shot of sport load in the mag.) It had no problems firing without proper bracing either(shooting from the hip was not a problem.) Could empty the mag as quickly as you could pull the trigger repeatedly, and the recoil was easily manageable to put several shots on the same target while doing that.

I agree about the intimidation factor for law enforcement though. I guess the best would be a hybrid(pump instead of cocking handle, followed by inertia-feed mechanism.)

The only shotgun I've ever had jam on me though was a 16 gauge bolt-action(yeah bolt-action shotgun...) Jammed frequently at that. It had a kick like a mule too.

Annie said...

Define "suzy soccermom"
?

Anonymous said...

Well, I'm a civilian and a private citizen, so I'm not police or military. That said, I've read somewhere that the average gun owner has a lot more to learn in "manual of arms" than the average cop. This is because the average gun owner is more likely to own more guns and more *types* of guns than the average cop. There are exceptions... you get the cop who is also a firearms afficianado and you also get the hunter who only has one deer rifle he's used for eons.

Myself... I'm in the afficianado category; I like a lot of different guns. I can use single-shot, lever, crankbolt, pump, and semi-automatic. They all have their place and I tend to like them all. But, I don't care for AR-15's and I don't care for Remington's offering of pump rifles. However, I like the 870 in 12 or 20 guage just fine. That's just me. The next guy might like or hate everything I like.

There's been mention of .44mag and .30-30 leverguns in this thread as being superior, as I understood it, to the .223 pump guns. I'm a big fan of the leverguns, but I won't say one's superior to the other. I'll say they're different. While I grew up with the whole idea of leverguns, I've run into people who said they never would be able to get used to one. Seems the same goes for crankbolts and any other action types.

mustanger98 on THR

Anonymous said...

How hard is it to strip camo off a gun?

And then, I need to get the synthetic stock swapped with a wood one...

The Raving Prophet said...

"Suzy soccermom" = generic term for a firearm-ignorant person (often female) who bases all reaction to firearms on emotional reactions. To this person, if a gun looks evil, it is evil, and has no place in society. This person is likely to hyperventilate at the presence of ANY firearm, and if it looks evil, then it's that much worse.

It's not perjorative to all "soccermoms," but it does point out that much of the support for gun control (Brady campaign, Million Mom March) is suburban middle aged women who are ignorant (in the classic sense of the word) about guns. Their common battle cry is "It's for the children!"

Brian said...

Did I miss something? Or should we Duracoat all cops' firearms in the "My Little Pony" motif?

Firearms are SUPPOSED to look evil. That's why Barbies don't have tactical grips, and my 870 doesn't have earrings.

If I call a cop for Goblin with a Gun, I want violent, ugly lethality now, not some PC vegan from Greenpeace with a pump-action red rider BB gun. Get an AR with frangible hollowpoints to reduce overpenetration, and calmly use aimed fire until the threat is neutralized.

Rick R. said...

Brian,

Beautiful. We have now established that YOU do not have a prejudice against the police being issued "scary" guns.

Too bad that for every one of us who understand that guns don't get up and shoot themselves, there are about a dozen hyperventilating ignorant wusses (both genders) who cannot BELIEVE that a "scary" gun is appropriate for police use. "Why, those things are designed to KILL people!!!" [PANT, PANT, PANT!]

Like the jackasses that try to keep EVEN THE SWAT TEAM from buying AR15s (or being DONATED M16s from Uncle Sam!).

Like the jackasses that went all wobbly on the revelation that their PD was issuing those "evil" MAGNUM revolvers in the 1970s.

Or teh jackasses who spazzed when it came out that officers were carrying those "evil dum-dums" (insert panting and wailing here, spliced with cries of "GENEVA!!!" -- even though it's "Hague" they're referring to and Hague doesn't apply outside open warfare with another Hague nation).

Like the jackasses who freaked when PDs started transitioning to semiautos in the 1980s an '90's.

Or the jackasses who opposed arming police officers IN THE FIRST PLACE. NYPD wasn't even allowed to carry a REVOLVER for a long time.

BUT, the American people (even Suzy Soccermom) ACCEPTS a wodd stocked pump gun as "normal" and "natural" for cruiser guns. (Somehow, black nylon furniture makes the perp hurt more when you blow his lungs out with No. 4 buck, I guess. . . {grin}.)

Issuing a wood-stocked pump RIFLE won't even attract notice, even when it has a 20 round AR box hanging out the bottom.

Pick your battles, especially when losing DOESN'T mean "stuck with the third best rifle" but "stuck with NO rifle, MAYBE no shotgun if the PD loses the PR game badly enough". (Yes, activists have gotten pump shotguns pulled from teh cruiser equipment list before.)

Given the MINIMAL advantage a semiauto AR15 gives a PATROL OFFICER over having "merely" a pump rifle that uses the same magazines, given the NEARLY NONEXISTANT disadvantages of having wood furniture, fixed stock, and no pistol grip (remember, the SIGHTS from the 7615 can be added to the "sporting" looking 7600 version and will never be noticed by the gun-ignorant), and given the ADVANTAGES in skill carry-over to using a weapon that operates basically the same as his shotgun,. . .

WHY IN THE NAME OF BUDDHA would you want to get all militant over the fact that the wood stocked Remington 7600 doesn't have an adjustable stock and black "tactical" furniture, or the fact that the rifle ISN'T an AR?!?

Hell, as stated earlier, an old Winchester .30-30 with factory iron sights would do the job -- but is OBVIOUSLY a "rifle" to the ignorant, and has a different manual of arms than the shotgun, so you lose those two advantages (training commonality and "low profile to the hoplophobes) to the Remington 7600.

Frankly, I'm FAR MORE concerned with getting the best equipment you can READILY issue into teh hands of tehpolice than risk losing that advantage trying to score political points in the gun control debate, with cops (and the civilians they are protecting) paying the price if you lose.



Kaerius,

There's a MUCH bigger difference between some of teh various police specialty loads and "standard" loads thna there is between the various "sporting" and "hunting" loads. Flat out, some specialty loads WILL NOT function in a semiauto set up for "police" or "hunting" loads (generally the same in the US, or so near that the gun can't tell the difference).

Again, as I said earlier -- if your department dosn't bother ISSUING those specialty loads for patrol officers, it doesn't matter. And the reliability comparisons are (I think) overrated -- as I also said. However, shooting the gun one handed (because your other hand is all mangled from incoming fire or other injury) while lying in the gutter trying to shelter behind teh wheelhub of your cruiser is a little bit more challenging to the semiauto's action than "shooting from the hip" under low-stress range conditions.

Also Matt G. has pointed out -- "In many agencies, 'semi-auto' is a non-starter." It's more of an issue in teh US than most other nations -- because TRADITIONALLY, cops carry revolvers, pump shotguns and (in some rural jurisdictions) lever-action rifles. Semiautos were considered "military".

Anonymous said...

Now, if Remington were smart enough to make it in 7.62X39....

Anonymous said...

Savage and IIRC a couple of other companies used to make pump rifles in .30-30 too.

mustanger98 on THR

Annie said...

Wow. I think I'm breaking all your preconceived stereotypes here.
I'm middle class, a suburbia mom, and also vegan.
BUT, I also have a CCW permit and a fair of amount of firepower. I know the ins and outs of each one of my pieces intimately. As far as ignorance of the media and the general public goes, they all should have to watch this before they open their mouths or pick up a pen/microphone/camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30&mode=related&search=
P.S.
At this rate, I just might be the only vegan, suburbia, middle class mom with a link to the LawDog Files on my blog.
Huh. Who knew.

Kaerius said...

However, shooting the gun one handed (because your other hand is all mangled from incoming fire or other injury) while lying in the gutter trying to shelter behind teh wheelhub of your cruiser is a little bit more challenging to the semiauto's action than "shooting from the hip" under low-stress range conditions.

Now that if anything is a situation where the semi will be more useful than a pump(imagine operating the pump mechanism with one hand in that situation!) The lesser felt recoil will also be a major boon in that situation. I'm sure there are situations where the pump could be more reliable, but the only one I can think of offhand is the specialty loads.

However, I can also see the points in favour of the pump, such as intimidation factor, and ironically more acceptance at the same time, as well as the specialty loads(we're talking stuff like less-than-lethal ammo here right?) And of course I think generally larger magazine size(to adhere to law.)

But really, shouldn't be that hard to redo the cosmetic side of the semi so it simply looks like a pump, to satisfy the suzy sockermoms anyway.

Rick R. said...

Kaerius,

Many departments train officers on operating their pumps one handed now -- for just the reason I stated.

And, no, a semiauto shotgun will generally NOT be more reliable under those cirmunstances -- at least occording to reliability testing conducted by various PDs.

As for looks, sure we could make a semiauto that looks like a pump. But the fact is, it will STILL be villified as a semiauto. Your average American non-hunter, non-gun nut could not tell a Remington 1100 and a Remington 870 apart without a diagram with arrows and annotations.

But they can figure it out quickly enough when someone tells them "They're issuing those AWFUL semiautomatic assault weapons!!!" [PANT, PANT, PANT] (Google makes it easy to figure out that the "Remington 100" mentioned in the news article is a semi; especially after some attorney hired by the "angelic, defenceless victim of police execution" (i.e., the local crack dealer who was interupted while expressing his displeasure with a rival's competing business) splashes it across the media as an example of how "The police are just trigger happy racist murderers, with their assault weapons! Why do they need such military firepower to 'Protect and Serve'?!?" [Insert wailing female family members in background -- "MadDog Killaz was framed! He was a good boy, on his way to Bible Study when these Klansmen Kops pulled up and done shot him for NO reason, then planted the guns and drugs!"]

Which is one reason the 870 is FAR more common in American police cruisers than the 1100. . . and where Matt G.'s comment comes from about semiauto being a non-starter for many departments. (Regardless of the TECHNIAL MERITS a semi may have, it just isn't going to happen in many PDs, for PR and political reasons. Good, bad, or indifferent -- that's the facts of reality.)

And then there's the fact that I've never heard of someone accidentally "double tapping" with a pump -- but I once popped a pair of rounds off when I only meant to fire one through a Benelli semi on the skeet range. (Missed the damned skeet, too -- but I'm not a wing shooter.)

A pump requires a deliberate action to ready the weapon for the next round -- while that's normally an ADVANTAGE for teh semi, in this case it is a slight DISadvantage (especially in teh eyes of liability and PR conscious administrators). Cops are not supposed to blaze out suppressive fire at IPSC speeds, ESPECIALLY with a longarm.

As for specialty loads -- oft times they ARE Less Than Lethal, but sometimes they are weirdos like lockbusters (although, why would you issue those to a patrol officer? SWAT and a special Warrant Squad, I can see. . . ) or (such as PDs with airport responsibilities).

Mark Horning said...

Any department that would issue a Rem 1100 is insane. My father's 1100 isn't reliable enough for dove hunting, much less LEO work. The gas system is just not robust enough to handle a large range of loads.

The pump rifle makes a lot of sense for cruiser carry, especially with the wood stock, or with a "woodgrain" plastic stock. Even better would be if Mossberg made one. (I find the 500 controls infinitely superior to the 870).

I stil think Glock is missing the boat by not making and marketing a carbine to the LEO market though.

Kaerius said...

And, no, a semiauto shotgun will generally NOT be more reliable under those cirmunstances -- at least occording to reliability testing conducted by various PDs.

Question is, which semi-autos? The gas-powered ones are not that reliable no. The beretta 1200 series are inertia-fed(the recoil powers the reloading mechanism, like with semi-automatic pistols.)

Gay_Cynic said...

Well, what with yours being the first blog I read seriously and all....how could I resist tagging you?

Rick R. said...

AFAIK, the Beretta 1200 is just another recoil operated shotgun.

Just like the very first commercial semiauto shotgun -- the Browning Auto 5. (Which has OFTEN been tested - and even adopted - for police and military work. The Brits were quite fond of the A-5 in Malaysia, AFAIK.)

Or the Benelli M1 (and decendants).

It's not a new concept.

Recoil powered weapons are even MORE sensitive to a weak hold than gas operated ones, all other things being equal.

AND. . . one of teh oft-touted advantages of a semiauto isn't nearly as useful in a recoil operated gun as a gas gun -- felt recoil reduction.

Rick R. said...

One point. . .

The newer (mostly European) desings use a variation of recoil-operation called "inertia operated".

Problem is -- if the shooter ends up bracing his weapon firmly against an inanimate object (so as to be able to continue to fire rounds while injured), and unable to tolerate the recoil - as a result of said injuries - the inertial systems flat-out do not work AT ALL

A pump gun will continue to work - albeit slowly - whilst the shooter still has one good hand to grasp the pump, and something to hold teh butt against (shoulder, tire, tree -- the pump doesn't care. . . the only mechanical reason it needs to be braced is to avoid bunging up the trigger finger during recoil).

Patrol officers SHOULD NOT be employing their shotguns in a manner where semiauto operation is a key factor in most cases. How many zombie invasions occur in the average jurisdiction? [grin] (And if they ARE common in your area, a 5.56mm is a better bet, 'cause zombies only go down with head shots. [snicker])

jrshirley said...

I believe my .35 Whelen 7600 (once I cut down a stock to right LOP) will be the perfect "truck gun": innocent looking as any rifle, fast to operate, hard hitting and yet reasonable recoil.